[lucksin]

So a quick background, I am quite fed up with stock head unit that came with My Baleno. There is a factory Low pass post 10khz and high pass post 40hz. Which means no matter what I do I won’t get any frequency post 10khz on upper end and 40hz at lower end.

Now I ordered an Alpine unit W660E which got installed but has to return it cause there was another upfront cost of 8k for steering interface plus Bluetooth cost, plus change in faceplates etc etc and the cost was going up to 35-36k.

Now since I will always 100% of the time will use CarPlay for music, and I have an active setup with DSP, does android or other brands like Sony and Pioneer makes a better purchase then Alpine?


For my use case, does it even make sense to invest in costly head unit when all the processing wil happen on my iPhone ? I do not know the chain of events in case of CarPlay hence would request anyone who could shed light if a Sony/Pioneer head unit with 4v output would yield better results compared to Android head unit with 4v output compared to system like Alpine where I will never use their onboard DAC for either Bluetooth or flash drive.

Would deeply appreciate any insight on this?

[navin]

Originally Posted by lucksin

So, a quick background: I am quite fed up with the stock head unit that came with My Baleno. There is a factory low-pass post 10khz and high-pass post 40hz, which means no matter what I do, I won’t get any frequency post 10khz on the upper end and 40hz at the lower end.

Now, since I will always 100% of the time use CarPlay for music, and I have an active setup with DSP, does Android or other brands like Sony and Pioneer make a better purchase than Alpine?

For my use case, does it make sense to invest in a costly head unit when all the processing will happen on my iPhone?

I would deeply appreciate any insight into this.

Lucksin,

Before I start, please pardon the clarifications. I am not very computer literate.

I assume you are using Spotify (or a similar application on your iPhone) to download music from the internet. You then send this music over CarPlay to your Alpine HU. The Alpine HU has DSP, and you have added separate amplifiers to send the music to good branded speakers (JL Audio, Focal, Morel, etc).

If this is correct, your source is already limited, especially in dynamic range, and changing the HU will serve no purpose. Have you tried streaming Apple Lossless from Apple Music?

The quality of the DAC and having a nominal output of 2V or 4V has no bearing on the sound at this stage.

Consider audio as a chain with Source > Processing > Amplification > Speakers. If your source is the limitation, changing other elements in the chain offers little or no advantage.

[lucksin]

Originally Posted by navin

I assume you are using Spotify (or a similar application on your iPhone) to download music from the internet. You then send this music over CarPlay to your Alpine HU. The Alpine HU has DSP, and you have added separate amplifiers to send the music to good branded speakers (JL Audio, Focal, Morel, etc).

Hi Navin, my apologies. I should have explained on current chain of equipments.

1. My primary music device is iPhone using Apple Music/spotify/wynk
2. Stock infotainment on car using wireless CarPlay(harman)
3. High level input to DSP
4. RCA input to amplifier
5. speakers - Polk MM6501 component's

I brought Alpine HU, however it has been returned now due to additional requirement for purchasing external steering wheel interface. I am back to Suzuki infotainment as of now.

There are many limitations on the current OEM headunit including OEM EQ and band pass on output and hence I wanted to change to something that doesn’t alter the signal or apply any EQ. I plan to do the EQ and correction of the signal on DSP. I also plan to use low level output from headunit to DSP.

While Alpine, Pioneer, Sony etc are brands which doesn’t color the output, the pricing of these units vary, some starting from 12k upward till 80k. On the other hand, we have Android units which are priced similar or even cheaper which have much better and bigger screen and functionality viz-a-viz these branded non Android units.

So with my current setup or for anyone with such setup, does investing in these costly unit make sense when all the processing happens on iPhone ?

Some sony high end units have LDAC, high-res audio support etc, the Alpine I brought was for 29k where as a good android HU would cost 15-20k with much bigger screen and functionality. In my use case I will never use the onboard DAC on these units, all processing will be done in iphone and these head units will act more like an extended screen plus Pre-amp which then sends the signal to DSP.

I just need a HU which doesn’t color or alter the sound signal via source(CarPlay) and send clean and flat output to DSP with 4V(match the DSP) input.

[navin]

Originally Posted by lucksin

1. My primary music device is iPhone using Apple Music/spotify/wynk
2. Stock infotainment on car using wireless CarPlay(harman)
3. High level input to DSP
4. RCA input to amplifier
5. speakers - Polk MM6501 component's

So with my current setup or for anyone with such setup, does investing in these costly unit make sense when all the processing happens on iPhone ?

I just need a HU which doesn’t color or alter the sound signal via source(CarPlay) and sends clean and flat output to DSP with 4V(match the DSP) input.

Since you already have amplifiers, you could add something like a Dayton Audio DSP. It retails for around 18-20k.
https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/...-and-car-audio

There are more expensive and elaborate DSPs available from Alpine, Rainbow, Hertz, Audison, etc however the Dayton Audio one is the only one I know that sells for less than 20k.

OT: This Pioneer Unit integrates a small 4-channel amplifier with a DSP.
https://pioneer-india.in/buy/car-ent...Specifications

[thirdmainroad]

Yes, the HU does have a part to play with audio quality. With a DSP, the trick is to keep the EQ on the HU neutral and adjust the EQ on the DSP. Even then, the output will depend significantly on the HU.

I’ve got a mid/high end DSP - A helix P Six ultimate and hook Apple CarPlay with my stock Taigun HU and achieve pretty decent sound. The Taiguns stock isn’t too bad apparently and must stay because it’s connected with the car readings and controls. Note that the DSP costs 2.5 L though!

I strongly believe Apple Music has the highest quality.

The absolute highest quality will be achieved connecting the phone to a DAC which is connected to the DSP directly, but I’ve been avoiding doing so myself - though I think I will go that way shortly, I am really throttling a very expensive setup with poor input.

There are a few Alpine HUs that audiophiles will swear by - there’s one for some 60 K that’s apparently killer.

The higher end Pioneers are pretty good too. On a previous setup of mine, I had a Pioneer Z series (I’ve forgotten the model - but it came with wireless CarPlay and cost around 50k back in 2018) hooked to a cheaper DSP, which cost around 70k.. again, forgotten what it was. But sound was pretty good on that setup as well. Never had a Sony, and I haven’t really had a high end installer ever talk about a Sony. They do talk about Alpine or Pioneer.

Basically, you’ll need a HU which supports High Res audio.

Unfortunately, good sound requires big bucks. You’ll need to shell out at least 50k for a decent enough HU.

What DSP do you have?

I wouldn’t touch any androids!

To add on, not all the processing is done on the phone. Though the iPhone has decent enough output, it isn’t a high res player. It’s your DSP that will largely do the magic and your HU will play a significant role. I doubt the stock HU on a Baleno is any good, and I’ll wager good money on it - I may be wrong though. If you are not willing to spend 50k minimum on a decent enough HU, your only option will be to get a DAC for 10-15 k and connect it to your phone and DSP. But that means no CarPlay on your HU - no maps, no calls, no changing songs and playlists!

[Ssquare]

Based on my experience, I would suggest first of all get rid of lossy content on other streaming services. In India, Apple Music provides best quality. Secondly, avoid wireless connections. Use wired Car Play or Android Auto. Bluetooth codec on Apple devices is not that great as compared to Android Devices. Case in point, my Samsung S23 Ultra sounds way better via Apple Music than an iPhone. Thirdly, in order to play lossless audio, you will require a DAC to process the signal. Hence, the most cheapest option would be try playing Apple Music Lossless through Android Auto. But the device should be of flagship level having Snapdragon processor as the audio codecs are better played through it. If you want to still stick to Apple ecosystem, avoid wireless connections completely. If you want to spend more then add an external DAC. If you have the budget then the best option would be buy a portable DAP (Digital Audio Player) from Astell & Kern which would provide you the best quality.

[thirdmainroad]

Originally Posted by Ssquare

If you want to still stick to Apple ecosystem, avoid wireless connections completely. If you want to spend more then add an external DAC. If you have the budget then the best option would be buy a portable DAP (Digital Audio Player) from Astell & Kern which would provide you the best quality.

Great recommendation regarding the DAP. A & K indeed have some good options around the 12-15k mark.

I do disagree with what you have to say about wireless CarPlay though. The quality is pretty good since it connects via WiFi + Bluetooth.

But that’s a moot point really. For good audio, one does need good wired connections!

[Kosfactor]

You could look at powering the DSP+AMP directly through Bluetooth without an HU present at all.

But in any case you need something good to receive the audio from phone without which it would be useless to have a premium music subscription.

So if you are looking at in-dash Carplay, Android Auto + good quality music - you will spend the big bucks for a Sony/Pioneer type set up, the cheaper no name brands won't work.

[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by Ssquare

Secondly, avoid wireless connections. Use wired Car Play or Android Auto. Bluetooth codec on Apple devices is not that great as compared to Android Devices.

Bluetooth is not used for audio while using wireless CarPlay. Bluetooth does not have enough bandwidth for CarPlay (projection of screen + audio and dealing with UI actions like touch). Bluetooth is only used for initial pairing.

Wireless CarPlay relies on WiFi for this traffic. Source : Page 42 in this document.

https://devstreaming-cdn.apple.com/v...ay_systems.pdf

[viXit]

Originally Posted by lucksin

Now I ordered an Alpine unit W660E which got installed but has to return it cause there was another upfront cost of 8k for steering interface plus Bluetooth cost, plus change in faceplates etc etc and the cost was going up to 35-36k.

Something wrong here. It has inbuilt Bluetooth and the steering interface shouldn't cost that much. You should just need the faceplate and a sterring wheel harness. That's a great head unit. Although if your dsp is capable, you would not need such a capable HU. I suggest going for a more basic HU since you already have a DSP for the tuning aspect.

I had the same Polk speakers in my Safari. Great Highs but a little sharp without correction.
Wasted if you're not getting a full range.

After struggling with trying to integrate a good sound system with my Factory Toyota head unit using a DSP, I have given up and am going with a standalone HU. I have a JL fix 86 for context. It gives me full range 6 Channel RCA out to both my amps and is decent but I need better.

To answer your question,
You can choose from two options.

1) Clean signal from HU to DSP to Amp to speaker
2) Eliminate HU from chain. Stream/connect iPhone/Type C android to DSP directly to Amp to Speaker.

I prefer option 2 as it's cleaner. And you can still use your car's HU for carplay while sending audio to DSP from phone. I do this in my Honda city where I use wireless CarPlay while sending audio to a BT Alpine unit for Audio.

Both are comparable in costs. But wiring and installation is easier in option 2.
IDK what DSP you are using or if it supports this. But you might want to consider changing the DSP if the HU Carplay works fine.


Full range but EQ'd signal from Factory HU:

[Doge]

This is what I have gotten for my car and for my wired headphones. It's a pretty cheap solution that gives you the option to use your cars aux and play music through your phone's bluetooth and it does improve the sound quality noticeably with cheap stock head units, I use it in an ecosport with apple music.

[proton]

I got into lossless hifi with an lg g8x phone which has a built in quad dac, connected to a sennheiser 600 headphone. Link it with a Tidal subscription and you can enjoy flac hires. Hires allows you hear the full range available to the human ear.

The obove set up can be difficult to replicate because lg doesn't make any more phones.

Other android phones will resample the audio, losing all the hires goodness.

In addition, tidal subscriptions are rarer than hen's teeth in india. Translation: very difficult to get.

Then came apple music, which began streaming hires for a very economical monthly subscription. So get a nice fiio dac, and a good set of headphones, and you are again set.

If you want to stream to your room hifi, you will need a full sized dac and amp, and take care of treating the room for shape and wall treatment.

Hires for car? Ferget it. Cars are the worse shaped for hifi. Road noise will lose you all the frequencies you got through lossless.

Settle for Spotify or Youtube music, depending on which interface you like, keeping in mind that ldac is only available on android. That's more than enough for spotify’s obb.vorbis or ytmusic’s mp3.

[Sumer]

I have cheaped out on this part of the audio chain. My setup is the Brezza stock unit-infinity reference series 4 channel amp and a Cerwin Wega mono amo- JL Audio C1 650 and C1 650x and a JL 10 inch sealed sub. What works in my case is that the old Brezza HU has an Aux input. So I use a OnePlus type c to 3.5 dongle and connect my OnePlus phone. You may use the Apple dongle, it measures technically better. I'm happy with the output I get through Apple Music. I can hear upto 16000 hz on a good day and the system plays that perfectly. My son can hear upto 20000hz and he heard that being played over the speakers.

Originally Posted by proton

I got into lossless hifi with an lg g8x phone which has a built in quad dac, connected to a sennheiser 600 headphone. Link it with a Tidal subscription and you can enjoy flac hires. Hires allows you hear the full range available to the human ear.

Going off topic. I am very interested to know how the 600s sound with your LG vs a dedicated headphone Dac/Amp, if you have had the chance to A/B test them.

[proton]

Originally Posted by Sumer

"Going off topic. I am very interested to know how the 600s sound with your LG vs a dedicated headphone Dac/Amp, if you have had the chance to A/B test them."

Hi Sumer, the LG g8x is very basic, even when I flashed the rom back to the Meridian audio tuned dac. So using an apple iphone12 with a qudelix dac, the difference is huge. I know that is vague, subjective, since it was not measured, or done with a switched A/B rig, but still noticeable, as the improvement is marked. Hope this helps, a bit.

PS The qudelix has a balanced 2.5mm output. Requiring an upgrade to the sennheiser 600s in the form of a balanced cable to match. That may have also contributed to the improvement.