[AutoNoob]

I seek your guidance and suggestions for my conundrum with ICE upgrade in Swift (2021) ZXi+.

Disclaimer :

I am total noob when it comes to ICE and whatever mumbo-jumbo I’ll be using below has been learnt from this forum and couple of friends. Still can't wrap my head around many things. So, excuse me for sharing and asking trivial things.

Background :

Last year I got Swift (2021) ZXi+ for daily commute. It’s competent vehicle for intra-city and occasional highway runs. Coming to audio system, Swift audio setup has obviously disappointed me. Its flat, kind of muffled. I am not an audiophile, however like clear vocals, mids & highs. Not a fan of heavy bass and believe in listening music inside vehicle and not make it a DJ for people on outside.

Once Work from Home got over and daily commute started, music system became unbearable and I started looking for options to upgrade.

What I am looking for :

After good amount of study here on team-bhp and other sites, plus watching numerous videos, I gained basics of car audio upgrade. Also, as the luck may have it, a friend shared experience of upgrading speakers of his S-Cross. Based on all this I have shortlisted the following :

1. HU : Stock (Harman Touchscreen – image below)
2. Front : Morel Maximo 6 components (with crossover) ~ INR 7,500
3. Rear : Morel Maximo 6C (coax) ~ INR 4,000
4. Amp : Pioneer GM-D8704 (and use speaker level inputs from HU) ~ INR 15,500
5. Damping : All four doors (Brand – as per availability) ~ INR 10,000
6. Shielded cables / wires etc. ~ INR 3,000
7. Installation ~ INR 5,000
8. Sub-Woofer : Not required as of now, may be in future

If, in future, I change the vehicle (another budget car for daily commute), these speakers and amp will be ported to it.

What is your opinion about this ?



Additional queries :

1. In Swift, road/ tire noise becomes prominent once speed hits 50+, particularly on concrete roads. Will selective/ partial damping on floor help improve this ? Don't want to overspend here for full floor. [tire upgrade to quieter ones is not in plan now]

2. If, just in case, I want to add sub-woofer to the above set-up, can it be done ? And how, connections etc. ? Haven’t done any study for this yet.


Current Stock HU :

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

Front Components + Subwoofer + 4 Channel Amplifier + Front doors damping was the final decision.
Final Setup:
1. Stock HU (I found out it's a very decent one, more on it later)
2. Morel Tempo 6 front components
3. Stock rear speakers
4. Gladen M line 10 subwoofer
5. Pioneer GM-D8704 amplifier
6. Front doors damping (Brazo)

This was well within my budget of 60k

Originally Posted by a4anurag

I had these speakers in my Swift and for a short while in my Creta too. I liked them, neither too loud nor meek. It was powered using Hertz HCP4.
Shouldn't be an issue if not used for long on battery.

Originally Posted by kunwar.g

I stay in Gurgaon too. I can help you source Morels. In 2020 picked 3 sets of Morel Maximo6 for 5500/- each. 1 for self, 1 for a rapid owner friend and 1 for a punto owner friend. No complaints till now. You can also get from Motorogue website.

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

I contacted Motor Concept by the way and perhaps they install higher end equipment (amps+subs+capacitors+speakers+damping etc). They sort of consider JBL GTO series as local stuff so didnt avail their service.

Originally Posted by Mr.Boss

Component speakers - decide after audition, which is close to your expectation.
On the HU, I suggest to stay away from Android HUs based on my past experience. They tend to get slower and underperform in due time. Go for something from the mainstream brands (Pioneer, Sony, JVC, Kenwood, Blaupunkt) with Android Auto & Apple car play options.

[attinder]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

2. If, just in case, I want to add sub-woofer to the above set-up, can it be done ? And how, connections etc. ? Haven’t done any study for this yet.

I did that last week to my existing setup. I ordered an active subwoofer from amazon. Pioneer was recommended over Blaupunkt.
Setup is easy, power and audio signal is taken from the speaker amplifier.
The Bass punch is quite good.

[PaddleShifter]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

Based on all this I have shortlisted the following :

1. HU : Stock (Harman Touchscreen – image below)
2. Front : Morel Maximo 6 components (with crossover) ~ INR 7,500
3. Rear : Morel Maximo 6C (coax) ~ INR 4,000
4. Amp : Pioneer GM-D8704 (and use speaker level inputs from HU) ~ INR 15,500
5. Damping : All four doors (Brand – as per availability) ~ INR 10,000
6. Shielded cables / wires etc. ~ INR 3,000
7. Installation ~ INR 5,000
8. Sub-Woofer : Not required as of now, may be in future.

What is your opinion about this ?


Additional queries :

1. In Swift, road/ tire noise becomes prominent once speed hits 50+, particularly on concrete roads. Will selective/ partial damping on floor help improve this ? Don't want to overspend here for full floor. [tire upgrade to quieter ones is not in plan now]

2. If, just in case, I want to add sub-woofer to the above set-up, can it be done ? And how, connections etc. ? Haven’t done any study for this yet.

Your shortlisted hardware is good and appropriate. May I suggest that if you are paying upto 5k for installation, buy speakers and damping material online (e.g. Motorogue website). Offline installers use extra damping material to inflate the bill. You can get a bulk pack of 10 sheets online for 5k. I paid 7k for damping and this was used up for front doors only. Had I got all 4 doors damped, the damping bill alone would have shot beyond 15k just for doors. I am getting these removed in coming weeks and getting the damping material I purchased online from Motorogue.

Other query:
1. Avoid damping the floor. Partial damping is not worth it anyway. Either do full floor damping or simply avoid it. Are you using stock tyres? JK, Ceat etc? You can instead switch to better tyres when they are due for replacement.

2. For adding a subwoofer in future, you can either use two channels of your amp in bridge mode (and power rear speakers using stock HU) or simply add an active sub. Another option is to add a monoblock amp and micro sized mono amps are available for this purpose that don’t occupy space.

P.S.- I dont use amplifiers etc as I prefer stock wiring. Do check out the specs of this compact 4 channel amplifier as well.

JBL Stage A6004-4 Channels Amplifier https://amzn.eu/d/bAPwgbz

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by attinder

I did that last week to my existing setup. I ordered an active subwoofer from amazon. Pioneer was recommended over Blaupunkt.
Setup is easy, power and audio signal is taken from the speaker amplifier.
The Bass punch is quite good.

Please share the exact model of the sub you bought.

As for installation, you mean to say that using 4 channel amp, FR speakers, RR speakers can be connected; and active sub can be connected in parallel to any of FR or RR outs of amp ?

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

Your shortlisted hardware is good and appropriate.

Thanks for the affirmation.

buy speakers and damping material online (e.g. Motorogue website).

I am planning to buy amp and speakers from Motorogue. Damping and installation to be done at a reputed shop. INR 5,000 is my estimate for labour only, it may vary 20% either side. I won't mind paying this if work is done satisfactorily.

1. Avoid damping the floor. Partial damping is not worth it anyway. Either do full floor damping or simply avoid it.

Understood. Thanks.

Are you using stock tyres? JK, Ceat etc? You can instead switch to better tyres when they are due for replacement.

Yes. Stock tires. I have my eyes on Continental CC5, but not planning to change immediately.

2. For adding a subwoofer in future, you can either use two channels of your amp in bridge mode (and power rear speakers using stock HU) or simply add an active sub.

I am more inclined for active sub, preferably under seat. Don't want to cramp the already small boot. Need to understand connections, though.

P.S.- I dont use amplifiers etc as I prefer stock wiring.

I am not planning to cut the stock wiring/ couplers. Install parallel wiring with aim to revert to OE condition when I switch to new vehicle.

Do check out the specs of this compact 4 channel amplifier as well.

JBL Stage A6004-4 Channels Amplifier

This has only 70W RMS output per channel. So, I think, speakers (90W RMS) won't be fully utilized. But while checking this I came across JBL Stage A9004 with 90W RMS output. However, I have no idea how it is w.r.t. Pioneer GM-D8704 both in terms of quality and circuit connections.

D8704 was installed by Dr. Naren in Baleno, so I am fairly confident it can be connected in Swift as well without any issues.

[attinder]

Yes, I have components both front and rear connected to the 4 channel amplifier. DD Audio SA300.4

Sub is connected to the rear out of amp with Y RCA cables.
Sub is in the boot but can be easily detached when space is required.

Sub is Pioneer TS-WX300A.

[PaddleShifter]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

This has only 70W RMS output per channel. So, I think, speakers (90W RMS) won't be fully utilized. But while checking this I came across JBL Stage A9004 with 90W RMS output. However, I have no idea how it is w.r.t. Pioneer GM-D8704 both in terms of quality and circuit connections.

If Dr. Naren has already used this amp and has given positive feedback, then go for it. As I said, I am not an expert in amp+sub systems, so can not say which one is better between Pioneer vs. JBL.

I also have a doubt and would request experienced members to clear it. Isn’t it better to buy an amplifier with slightly less wattage than the speaker? A 70W RMS amplifer can easily run a 90W RMS speaker without any issue and there is no chance of higher wattages coming from the amplifier damaging the speaker by running it beyond its capacity.

P.S.- I have 90W RMS JBL GTO609c running on stock Suzuki SmartPlay Studio head unit.

[navin]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

1. In Swift, road/ tire noise becomes prominent once speed hits 50+, particularly on concrete roads. Will selective/ partial damping on floor help improve this ? Don't want to overspend here for full floor. [tire upgrade to quieter ones is not in plan now]

2. If, just in case, I want to add sub-woofer to the above set-up, can it be done ? And how, connections etc. ? Haven’t done any study for this yet.

You don't need to damp the floor. Just damp the doors well. There will always be some road noise. The firewall, windows, etc offer enough avenues for that to creep in.

Your equipment choice is fine. If you need to add a subwoofer you can bridge 2 channels of the 4 channel amp to drive it and use the HU to drive the rear speakers. Alternately if the budget permits, you could get a dedicated monoblock amplifier for the subwoofer.

Sorry for the late response, I am travelling and will be till the end of the month.

[ChiwdaG]

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

I also have a doubt and would request experienced members to clear it. Isn’t it better to buy an amplifier with slightly less wattage than the speaker? A 70W RMS amplifer can easily run a 90W RMS speaker without any issue and there is no chance of higher wattages coming from the amplifier damaging the speaker by running it beyond its capacity.

Always better to have an amp which can provide a little more than the rated RMS power of the speakers. That way, you avoid the amp clipping (which can damage speakers) and also get the cleanest output at all volumes.

The best way to avoid too much power going to the speakers is to set up your HU with your preferred audio tuning/EQ, max out the HU volume and slowly turn up the amp volume till you reach distortion, then back down a little. And you've got clean audio at all volumes!

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by navin

You don't need to damp the floor. Just damp the doors well. There will always be some road noise. The firewall, windows, etc offer enough avenues for that to creep in.

Thanks sir. Based on guidance from PaddleShifter and you, I have now dropped plan of damping the floor. Anyways it was going to be partial damping only.

Your equipment choice is fine. If you need to add a subwoofer you can bridge 2 channels of the 4 channel amp to drive it and use the HU to drive the rear speakers. Alternately if the budget permits, you could get a dedicated monoblock amplifier for the subwoofer.

Understood. However, in last few days, based on inputs from friends, there is some change in plan.

Originally Posted by ChiwdaG

Always better to have an amp which can provide a little more than the rated RMS power of the speakers. That way, you avoid the amp clipping (which can damage speakers) and also get the cleanest output at all volumes.

The best way to avoid too much power going to the speakers is to set up your HU with your preferred audio tuning/EQ, max out the HU volume and slowly turn up the amp volume till you reach distortion, then back down a little. And you've got clean audio at all volumes!

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

Isn’t it better to buy an amplifier with slightly less wattage than the speaker? A 70W RMS amplifer can easily run a 90W RMS speaker without any issue and there is no chance of higher wattages coming from the amplifier damaging the speaker by running it beyond its capacity.

I agree and that's why my choice was just 10W above speaker rating. This is considering I rarely play music even at 60% volume of HU. Moreover, I wanted to be somewhat future proof in case speakers are further upgraded later. GM-D8704 is class-D, accepts speaker level inputs and very compact. These are other reasons to opt for that.

P.S.- I have 90W RMS JBL GTO609c running on stock Suzuki SmartPlay Studio head unit.

How do you rate the change in performance over stock speakers ? Also, what is model year of your S-Cross, to understand the HU model ? Though, I understand that S-Cross body and panels are built much sturdier than Swift, your feedback will be important.


Change of Plan :

I got valuable suggestions from everyone and also, a dear friend who goes by Mr.Boss here on Team-BHP. Accordingly, I tried playing music in my vehicle at 75% volume level (usually I play less than 50%). This trial was done at city speeds upto 50kmph. The sound level seemed adequate with stock speakers. This way only speaker upgrade and damping should be sufficient.

However, I am still concerned for highway driving, as sound just drowns in road noise. As per my research, stock HU is rated only 25W RMS per channel. This was the main reason I was inclined to add amp.

So, now, dividing plan in two phases seems appropriate.

Phase 1 :
Speakers and Damping only

Phase 2 : (if highway performance is still inadequate)
Add Amp and related wiring etc.

What do the experts think ?

[viXit]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

.......

So, now, dividing plan in two phases seems appropriate.

Phase 1 :
Speakers and Damping only

Phase 2 : (if highway performance is still inadequate)
Add Amp and related wiring etc.

I have browsed this entire thread from start to end over the past two years to pass most of my (not)free time, and the most reiterated advice has always been to do the upgrade in stages.

Your plan is perfect.

Many stock head units are inadequate for high end applications, but sound is highly subjective and you might just love it, you never know.


Get new speakers and dampen the doors. Make sure they use the right size speakers and good screws that do not damage the door while screwing them onto the door.

There should be ZERO changes to wiring here in this stage. You will be using existing wiring only.

This setup will be a good 50% improvement over your present setup, most important thing will be to play with the tuning options in your head unit after the new speakers install. You might not be able to experience the full potential of your new speakers with the limited tuning options on your stock head unit.

Then IMO, you should add an AMP next. This will require a good amount of wiring

-Signal wiring from Head unit to amp
-Speaker wiring from amp to speakers
-power wiring from Car Battery to amp



All that said,

The setup that has always worked for me, is to add a subwoofer in the first go.

recommended setup.

1)Change the front speakers, power them using channel 1 & 2 on new amplifier.

2)leave stock rear speakers as it is, they are currently powered by head unit, let it be like that, this was you can retain fader controls too.

3) add a basic subwoofer and power it by bridging the channels 3 & 4 on the amplifier.

Subwoofer has made the most difference in my setup and I love it.

Tune the crossover setting on the Amp well so that high frequencies go to the Front and low frequencies go to the subwoofer, this was, a proper distribution of frequencies to the right speaker will be done, this helps sound quality improve by leaps and bounds. Recommended crossover point is 80Hz


Since you decided to skip on the subwoofer in the first two steps, you don't seem like someone who wants to shake the car with Bass, so a basic subwoofer should be more than enough, and the main goal is to delegate the duties of the speakers according to the frequency, once we offload the low freq. to the sub, the front components can perform really well.

This is all my experimental learning from changing a few amps, breaking a pair or two of speakers and building the sound system in my Storme myself. Hope I could help

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by viXit

I have browsed this entire thread from start to end over the past two years to pass most of my (not)free time, and the most reiterated advice has always been to do the upgrade in stages.

Your plan is perfect... Many stock head units are inadequate for high end applications, but sound is highly subjective and you might just love it, you never know.

Make sure they use the right size speakers and good screws that do not damage the door while screwing them onto the door.

My plan is to buy speakers from Motorogue and get them installed by reputed professionals.

Tune the crossover setting on the Amp well so that high frequencies go to the Front and low frequencies go to the subwoofer, this was, a proper distribution of frequencies to the right speaker will be done, this helps sound quality improve by leaps and bounds. Recommended crossover point is 80Hz

I wasn't aware such setting can be done. Thanks a lot for this vital input.

Since you decided to skip on the subwoofer in the first two steps, you don't seem like someone who wants to shake the car with Bass, so a basic subwoofer should be more than enough, and the main goal is to delegate the duties of the speakers according to the frequency, once we offload the low freq. to the sub, the front components can perform really well.

The setup that has always worked for me, is to add a subwoofer in the first go. recommended setup.

1)Change the front speakers, power them using channel 1 & 2 on new amplifier.

2)leave stock rear speakers as it is, they are currently powered by head unit, let it be like that, this was you can retain fader controls too.

3) add a basic subwoofer and power it by bridging the channels 3 & 4 on the amplifier.

Noted. If incase I plan to add amp later, will go by this route. However, won't be looking for big powerful sub. Preferably something in 8inch size. But this research will take place in future.

[skhattar]

I have been getting my cars ICED since the maruti Zen days. Those were great days to be Alive! Over the years, I have realized that sound calibration is a vital cog in the ICE wheel. One should not ignore it if budget allows.

In my earlier car 5er F10, I was using a PP86 amp with built in DSP. I had it calibrated from a professional. The imaging was dead center and soundstage was wide. The midrange was smooth.
The DSP and right calibration had a huge role to play here. This car had 2 underseat mid-bass ( some call them sub woofers), and one set of components in the front. All by the Audiotech fischer MATCH range.

My current car G30, 530D with Harman 16 channel is just okay when compared. So, its not always the number of speakers, cost etc. I am in the Home Audio line and I know a thing or about audio

https://www.audiotec-fischer.de/en/m...fiers/pp-86dsp

I strongly suggest getting digital sound processor. Hope this helps.

[PaddleShifter]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

How do you rate the change in performance over stock speakers ? Also, what is model year of your S-Cross, to understand the HU model ? Though, I understand that S-Cross body and panels are built much sturdier than Swift, your feedback will be important.

The change in performance over stock speakers is definitely there in terms of audio frequencies (esp. mid and high frequencies), and the effect of damping. But I will be honest here that the % change is “not that high” when compared to my 2010 Grande Punto Emotion Pack variant.

In my 2010 Punto, the difference was day and night between stock speakers and JBL GTO608c + JVC 4 way coaxials along with damping. The HU was rated at 30x4W.

S-Cross already had decent speakers to be honest but I simply wanted to swap the paper cone, lightly built factory speakers with proper speakers from the aftermarket. The mids and highs have improved with the JBLs. Since I consider damping the front doors to be a necessity, I took that opportunity to swap the speakers as well. Also the fact that the work was done in a very poor manner by a stupid installer, I am not happy with the set up (it is psychologically there in my mind that the damping has been done poorly and crossover is mounted at a wrong place. Wires going to the tweeter in dash are also visible when door is opened).

I play music at volume of 10-12 and never go above 14 when playing music via USB stick/ pen drive.

When playing music via Spotify using Apple CarPlay, I generally play music at 14-18 volume and rarely at 20.

Mine is an August 2020 manufactured S-Cross petrol. It came with 7” SmartPlay Studio head unit which was standard HU model for most MS cars in that year.

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by skhattar

The DSP and right calibration had a huge role to play here. I strongly suggest getting digital sound processor. Hope this helps.

Thanks. DSP surely is big step up, however, won't be able to include that due to budget constraint.

Originally Posted by PaddleShifter

The change in performance over stock speakers is definitely there in terms of audio frequencies (esp. mid and high frequencies), and the effect of damping. But I will be honest here that the % change is “not that high”

Understood. I'll try Phase 1 and then may go to Phase 2.

Also the fact that the work was done in a very poor manner by a stupid installer, I am not happy with the set up

Thanks again for heads-up about Kalra. I almost went to them, but saw your feedback. Now, looking to search for proper installer. Not been able to locate any recommended ones in Gurgaon.

Mine is an August 2020 manufactured S-Cross petrol. It came with 7” SmartPlay Studio head unit which was standard HU model for most MS cars in that year.

So, both Swift and S-Cross have same HU.

[nik0502]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

I am more inclined for active sub, preferably under seat. Don't want to cramp the already small boot. Need to understand connections, though.

I am not planning to cut the stock wiring/ couplers. Install parallel wiring with aim to revert to OE condition when I switch to new vehicle.

Hi,

I have a Pioneer WX400DA underseat sub with in built class D amp in my Civic along with a 4 channel amp which powers all four speakers. Most of underseat subs come with inbuilt amplifier so you can use your four channel amplifier for all four speakers. I hope this helps. Also the sub is just right for your requirements. It gives enough bass inside the car but someone standing outside doesn’t even realise there’s a sub working inside the car. You also get a wired remote which you can use to control the bass as per your taste.