[RiderZone]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

1. Have you heard of the RC500 having issues with spokes like the RC100 (and probably the RC120) does?
2. Would you have any suggestions for alternatives to the RC500 that I could check out (even if they are not sold in India)?

No I haven't heard of issues with RC500 spokes. The only thing I've heard is that the wheels are rather heavy (still lighter than the RC120), and getting the stock tires on or off is hard.

Good thing is that they take 35mm tires and I never had any issues smashing them into curbs even with the stock 28mm tires, and the frame will fit 40mm tires with 650b wheels. I have done some 2000 kms on the bike so far, including some bad off-road sessions and once down a ramp where I hit the base so hard the bars slid downwards. No issues at all.

Can't help you with other choices I'm afraid, I started cycling only this year, and all my limited knowledge is about old pieces of junk sold in Germany. I bought the RC500 here because that was the cheapest choice with great reviews for someone who didn't have the knowledge to buy second hand. I haven't found anything better new since that's better value.

[Motard_Blr]

I have an RC500 that I bought used.

Note that I haven't experienced more "famous brands" so I don't have a comparison.

Likes:

• The Shimano Sora system works great! This alone bumps up the value quotient by a big deal
• The cable operated disc brakes work really well too.
• Can fit wider tyres. I used 35C tyres for a while until I found the correct sized tyres.
• General fit and finish is good
• The riding experience has been good and I'm enjoying riding it.
• Decathlon service is cheap.

Dislikes

• The Triban tyres suffered many punctures. I don't know if age was a factor. I replaced them with Kenda tyres. Just one puncture so far.
• A few broken spokes that were replaced and the wheels were trued. It's been holding well since then, even on Bangalore potholed roads.
• Decathlon service is very limited. They don't have many spares including tyres.

I spent quite a bit of time adjusting the positions to get a good fit. I did plenty of research to understand what works. The main thing that stood out is that you should choose the frame size carefully. If 2 sizes suit you, it's better to pick the smaller one as it's more likely to fit you better.

Someone mentioned that it's hard to get the tyres off. The rims are designed to be tubeless which means that they have steps on the inside to keep the beads seated correctly. After dealing many punctures, I finally figured out that the correct technique to get the tyres off is to push both beads towards the centre of the rim and then lever out one bead.

The RC 500 is only sold online now unless there is any leftover stock in a shop. The price has dropped from 70k to 60k, making it an even better value bike than before. But I can't tell you if spending double that on a specialist brand will actually double the experience or enjoyment. I am planning on using my bike as long as I can or until I grow over it.

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

...

Someone mentioned that it's hard to get the tyres off. The rims are designed to be tubeless which means that they have steps on the inside to keep the beads seated correctly. After dealing many punctures, I finally figured out that the correct technique to get the tyres off is to push both beads towards the centre of the rim and then lever out one bead.
...

On the subject of mounting tyres, I have questions that I hope someone here can answer.

I found that because of the step in the bead seat, the bead WILL NOT seat correctly unless I inflate the tyres to more than 80 PSI at which point the beads snap into the correct place. I then deflate to 75 PSI that I normally use for the rear for 700 x 35C tyre.

I usually carry a small backpack on my rides with a spare tube, battery powered inflator and tyre levers.

Questions:

1. Is this what everyone does?
2. Should I use some bead lubricant? If yes, any recommendations?
3. Is there a simpler way?
4. Is it worth converting to tubeless tyres?

Thanks

[amol4184]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

I found that because of the step in the bead seat, the bead WILL NOT seat correctly unless I inflate the tyres to more than 80 PSI at which point the beads snap into the correct place. I then deflate to 75 PSI that I normally use for the rear for 700 x 35C tyre.

Questions:

1. Is this what everyone does?
2. Should I use some bead lubricant? If yes, any recommendations?
3. Is there a simpler way?
4. Is it worth converting to tubeless tyres?

Thanks

1. Yes. For the first time you have to fit the tire bead into rim bed (hook) until they make the pop sound. That's the confirmation the tire has seated.

2. I use soapy water. I fill it up in a spray bottle and spray it all around the tire bead. Stronger detergent like Tide/Surf are better than hand wash.

3. Warm the tire first. I wash it in hot water. In India since it's hot most of the year, just keep it outside during the sun for some time and then mount it. If you are using tubes then you can skip this because tube will seat the tire anyway. With tubeless you definitely need to soften the tire - some more than others, depending on the brand.

4. On gravel, MTB, XC, DH it's well worth it. I switched to tubeless on gravel bike and had 2 flats for entire lifespan of tires that too once the tires wore out to nub. When I was using tubes I used to have 2 punctures per month on average, sometimes more. I will never go back to tubes.

For road bikes it's controversial because you don't run into gravel like obstacles. For road I use TPU tubes which feel very similar to running tubeless.

Tubeless setup is exponentially more messy than tubes and I hate it. My favorite tires are Panaracer GK, Continental GP5000s and I can't seat them if my life depended on it. I just take it to shop and pay them to have tires mounted on my rims. Once they are mounted, you don't have to take them off for punctures so it's a one time effort until the next tire change.

[ostrish]

Originally Posted by Motard_Blr

[*]Is there a simpler way?[*]Is it worth converting to tubeless tyres?[/list]Thanks

If you are riding only road, don't bother.

Apropos of seating - you cannot seat it with the battery inflator, it is too slow.

To seat tyres at home, there are tubeless inflators you can buy. Think of it as a high pressure canister. You pump the inflator up to 100-120psi, then connect it to the wheel with mounted tyre. You can release the air all at once, it will gush in and seat the tyre (ideally).

You can also seat with just a floor pump, but I've never seen that on road bike wheels. On my MTB wheels, I can seat Maxxis tyres with stiffer casing (DD) with just a floor pump.

I had a Birzman Pump Up inflator that I used for a few years. Then Birzman issued a recall, and the website I bought it from (World of Wheelz) actually got in touch and picked it up. Was pleasantly surprised.

After that I bought a Giyo GTT1 from Cyclop in 2021. Isn't as good but does the job. Was about 3.5k.

I run tubeless on all my bicycles (trail/xc/gravel), but if you don't ride trails, don't bother. There isn't much of a gain on road, unless you like to ride rough over broken roads. Before going tubeless, I would get a lot of flats on the gravel bike. Mostly pinch flats from drops or jumps. With TL, tyre pressure can be much lower without the worry of pinch flats.


EDIT: After reading your post again I realise I have not answered your actual question , my bad please excuse. I think your tyres with seat more easily with the tube as they age. Also, battery powered inflator is too heavy, a small handpump is easier to carry. CO2 cartridges if you want best of both worlds.

[amol4184]

Originally Posted by ostrish

You can also seat with just a floor pump, but I've never seen that on road bike wheels. On my MTB wheels, I can seat Maxxis tyres with stiffer casing (DD) with just a floor pump.

If you are using foot/hand pump and the valve type is Presta, those tiny converters that screw on top of Presta to convert to Schrader valve type allows more volume of air to pass through. I had some some success with such setup. Else, I take the whole thing to gas station air pump and try to inflate it with car inflators. None of this guarantees seating but your chances increase a lot.

[ostrish]

Originally Posted by amol4184

None of this guarantees seating but your chances increase a lot.

I've not had any failure to seat in the last 5 years now, IME the days of TL setup being a crapshoot are gone. Mostly tyres have gotten better at it. 25s/28s are still a pain but 32 onwards I've found it pretty easy. It also helps to install the tyre with a tube and leave it on for a couple of days, helps negate how tightly folded they were while being shipped.

Cheap Chinese TL tape and valves have also driven the cost down apart from sealant. If it weren't for the tire drought in India...

[amol4184]

Originally Posted by ostrish

I've not had any failure to seat in the last 5 years now, IME the days of TL setup being a crapshoot are gone. Mostly tyres have gotten better at it. 25s/28s are still a pain but 32 onwards I've found it pretty easy. It also helps to install the tyre with a tube and leave it on for a couple of days, helps negate how tightly folded they were while being shipped.

Lucky you! Built/rebuilt numerous bikes but tubeless always gets me.

[ninjatalli]

Originally Posted by ostrish

I've not had any failure to seat in the last 5 years now, IME the days of TL setup being a crapshoot are gone. Mostly tyres have gotten better at it. 25s/28s are still a pain but 32 onwards I've found it pretty easy. It also helps to install the tyre with a tube and leave it on for a couple of days, helps negate how tightly folded they were while being shipped.

Cheap Chinese TL tape and valves have also driven the cost down apart from sealant. If it weren't for the tire drought in India...

Care to expand a bit more on your tubeless journey? Always wondered on the usecase of having a TL (vs a tubed setup) for my hybrid (32c) and roadbike (23/25c). I generally end up paying a premium for puncture proof tires like Conti Gatorskins and Schwalbe Duranos; but interested in TLs.

The following Qs are specific for the Indian scene

1. What kind of terrain does the TL become more ideal? And bike type(s)?

2. What products have you leveraged? What is the hit to the wallet like?

3. On a daily riding basis, does it make any difference?

[ostrish]

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Care to expand a bit more on your tubeless journey?

An invitation to blow my own trumpet! Who would refuse

I used to have a very long and detailed guide when we are all doing ghetto tubeless. Sometimes the Outex kits give me flashbacks.

Now things are quite standardised if you have the ₹₹₹.

• First successful set up was around 2017, on a KHS Alite 1000. Non-TL rims with non-TL tyres. Being able to run 20psi was a game changer, for my trail riding. So much confidence. My riding improved a lot.
  
• In 2018 I upgraded to a more modern MTB (Psynyde 140mm hardtail) which has non tubeless rims, but they hold tubeless just fine. I ran them with non-TL tyres but had a catastrophic failure in a BBCh. So since have stuck to TL tyres. TL + dropper post again made my skill progression very enjoyable.
  
• XC bike (Yeti ASRc) and gravel bike (Surly Straggler) both have official TL wheels. The XC wheels (Stans, carbon) are really good at holding on to the tyres, I can run 17-18psi without burping the tyres.

That said, I am yet to set up ghetto tubeless on a gravel or road bike. And god knows I have tried. So I always go TL rim + TL tyre on anything skinny.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

Always wondered on the usecase of having a TL (vs a tubed setup) for my hybrid (32c) and roadbike (23/25c).

Unless you have a puncture epidemic, I would say for road bikes there is no use case. In fact TL setups don't hold air as well as tubes. So I usually have to top up 2-5psi every couple of rides. My wife has a Kona JtS that runs tubes and is much better at maintaining pressure.

The main use case for TL is - lower pressure (below 30psi), general reduction in thorn flats, no pinch flats from jumps or drops.

If you ride on roads, then you don't need sub-30 psi pressure. If you ride sedately, no dropping off of pavements or hitting speed breakers as jumps, you won't get pinch flats either. Road debris/thorns puncture risk is still there, but IME puncture resistant tyres are a more elegant solution for tube users.

There was a time when 90% of trail riding in Bangalore was bushwhacking. Every ride had a couple of punctures. Tubeless really fixed that pain point for me. We have fairly established regular trails now, and so thorn related punctures have reduced in general as well.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

1. What kind of terrain does the TL become more ideal? And bike type(s)?

Mostly for trail riding, whatever bike you do it on. But I think more than bike type, it is the rider type. If you want to be aggressive, tubeless is great. I use TL on my gravel bike so that it can be treated badly on bad roads and trails. On MTBs it is a no-brainer, the confidence from running low pressures is ridiculously addictive.

Some amateur riding on the gravel bike (ironically I am running tubes in this):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehj552lC3Jg

What the bike looks like now. It has the Velocity rims, and a hand operated dropper post. Running 32c Panaracer GK SKs, so less capable on dirt that previous tyres.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

2. What products have you leveraged? What is the hit to the wallet like?

I have three tubeless bikes so some math works in my favour (e.g. sealant big bottle) but some does not (e.g. going to a bike shop)

1. Tubeless wheels - Cheapest TL MTB rim + TL setup would be around 10k per wheel, if you can reuse the hubs and tyres. More for road bike rims. Better to pick a bike with TL wheels.
   
2. TL tyres - usually in 4k-6k range per tyre. I am a fan of Maxxis and find seating them very easy. WTB also works ok. Have ripped Schwalbe and Vittoria tyres, so I avoid them now.
   
3. Sealant - there are some standard brands. A 2k bottle will last you a year easy. This is needed to seal punctures and also prevent air from leaking around the valve. Unlike motorcycles, it is not optional.
   
4. Tape - stupidly overpriced. ~1400 for a 10 yard tape which is good for about 4 wheels. I buy a 50m tape from eBay for same price.
   
5. Valve - again stupidly overpriced. You can just reuse valves from tubes if they have a) removable valve core and b) entire body is threaded and takes a locknut. I don't even buy them from eBay, just cut them out form old tubes!
   
6. Inflator - as described in previous post, it's a one-shot equivalent of a shop floor air compressor. Optional but makes life very easy. ~4k.
   
7. Tubeless plugs - I just carry motorcycle ones that I have thinned out. Previously I tried Stan's DART tool but it never worked well for me and is damn expensive.
   
8. Sealant injector - Used to top up sealant through the valve. I use syringes, one medical and one from an old bleed kit. Works just fine.
   
9. Tools - valve core remover, presta and schrader. The Psynyde is actually a Schrader TL setup and is way more convenient than Presta. Good surface cleaner is also useful.

I would guess a good bike shop would charge you around 3-4k to go tubeless from scratch, excluding tyres. So that makes the tape optional. But there is some sufficiency required when it comes to topping up sealant or fixing flats.

Originally Posted by ninjatalli

3. On a daily riding basis, does it make any difference?

Depends on how exciting daily riding is On MTBs, tubeless is a non-negotiable for me, along with dropper posts, 1x drivetrains, derailleurs with a clutch, and hydraulic brakes.

Tubeless is a commitment though. And if its features end up being just good-to-haves, the effort to reward ratio doesn't work out.

[dearchichi]

Hello bike experts.

I looking into buying my first road bike (my long-term goal is to ride the BRMs). I have ridden 4.1K KM since April on a Riverside 120, after which that bike was rendered unusable after a fall.

I am looking into various models at the moment. One of the aspects that bothers me in high-end (~Rs. 1.5L onwards) is the integrated housing of cables within the handlebar, stem, headtube, frame or fork. For example, the Scott Addict series.

I imagine this to pose problems during service. One needs to remove the stem, spacers, upper bearing, and even dissemble the headset perhaps, to change a cable or hose. One needs to disconnect all cables and hoses to replace the top headset bearings.

Also, headset reassembly and reinstallation of stem needs to be done right to avoid the carbon steerer being compromised.

Even though it looks aesthetically appealing, I shudder at the work that it entails (even if at the bike shop) for tasks that would have lasted 5 minutes without such routing, nevermind issues with water ingress (despite the grommets). What does this community think about the same?

[RiderZone]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

I am looking into various models at the moment. One of the aspects that bothers me in high-end (~Rs. 1.5L onwards) is the integrated housing of cables within the handlebar, stem, headtube, frame or fork. For example, the Scott Addict series.

Very far from a bike expert, but I'm currently looking for a used carbon bike, and for ease of maintenance I'm only looking at 2 categories:

1. Rim brake bike with external cable routing
2. Disc brake bike with fully wireless drivetrain (SRAM AXS for example)

The first category is obviously cheaper, but in most cases it's also lighter. Haven't yet come across a rim brake bike with wireless shifting for some reason.

The more I look into it, the less I understand the concept of aero bikes, or the associated aero things like integrated/internal cables. Especially for a hobby rider like me the thought of messing about with integrated cables is an absolute nightmare, and here in Germany even if I was OK with the expense of bike shops working on my bike, appointments are few and far between.

In any case I'm so far away from maximizing my riding capabilities that gaining a few watts from hiding my cables away is the least of my problems Do aero bikes look pretty? Sure they do, but as with everything in life buying something is easy, living with the thing is what matters.

[amol4184]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

I am looking into various models at the moment. One of the aspects that bothers me in high-end (~Rs. 1.5L onwards) is the integrated housing of cables within the handlebar, stem, headtube, frame or fork. For example, the Scott Addict series.

I imagine this to pose problems during service. One needs to remove the stem, spacers, upper bearing, and even dissemble the headset perhaps, to change a cable or hose. One needs to disconnect all cables and hoses to replace the top headset bearings.

Also, headset reassembly and reinstallation of stem needs to be done right to avoid the carbon steerer being compromised.

Even though it looks aesthetically appealing, I shudder at the work that it entails (even if at the bike shop) for tasks that would have lasted 5 minutes without such routing, nevermind issues with water ingress (despite the grommets). What does this community think about the same?

Internal cable routing is an evil brought on the industry because for the pros it saves a few watts. The clean looks then caught on and trickled into consumer market.

It's a huge pain to setup in the first place and subsequent adjustments/services take unnecessarily longer too, there is no getting around it.

With that said, if you are buying a complete, fully built bike you don't have to worry about routing/assembling. The hardest part is already done for you. As for the servicing, you don't need to take out cables or hoses. Once installed the cables and hoses last for years. Same for headset bearings - in all probability the headset will last the entirety of the bikes lifespan. When the time comes to change cable outers, there are some tools and tricks to make it easier.

The headset installation needs to be done right regardless of the steerer type. If it's cut correctly and stem is tightened with torque wrench there should be no problem. If you are going to do maintenance yourself, definitely invest in a torque wrench.

I went through the whole setup on a couple of bikes I built from scratch. It's been 2 years since the initial work and I didn't have to change the cables or headset. Also good thing (if you are using mechanical shifting) is you can simply keep the cable housing as it is and only change the inner cable. Since the outer housing is held firmly in place inside the handlebar, stem and frame it forms a solid channel for the cable to pass through.

Also of note, hydraulic brakes work way better in an ICR frame. Those cable pull mechanical disc brakes really don't like the tight curves in the cables/outers. And the compressionless brake outers are terribly difficult to route forcing you to use non compressionless outers which hamper the performance. Definitely go for a model with hydraulic brakes it's worth it for this and many other reasons. I went through this and the upgrade to hydraulic was worth it.

As for the water ingress, you can't stop that. Water is going to go in no matter what you do. Frames have holes to let the water out. Almost all bearings in modern bikes are sealed and resist water easily. Make sure there's plenty of grease around all the contact points between bearing and frame.
The bearings that are most likely to get effected by water are in the bottom bracket assembly and those can be changed without touching the internally routed cables.

Originally Posted by RiderZone

1. Rim brake bike with external cable routing
2. Disc brake bike with fully wireless drivetrain (SRAM AXS for example)

The first category is obviously cheaper, but in most cases it's also lighter. Haven't yet come across a rim brake bike with wireless shifting for some reason.

My CAAD 10 is wireless shifting rim brake. The groupset is SRAM Red etap 11. It's an excellent solution for old bikes that don't have electronic cable pass-throughs. Rare though. Definitely look it up if you must have that kind of setup. It's beautiful.

As for the wireless + discs, you still have to route 2 hoses through the handle, stem, fork and frame.

[dearchichi]

Originally Posted by amol4184

Once installed the cables and hoses last for years. Same for headset bearings - in all probability the headset will last the entirety of the bikes lifespan.

Thanks Amol for your instructive response. Yes, cables and hoses have long lifetimes. I expected the same on my Riverside 120, but unbeknownst to me, the heel of my right shoe was abrading against the rear brake cable, causing it to fray in two months. It was a 5-minute job to get it replaced at a LBS. With ICR, I'd imagine it to take a lot longer, a different set of skills and a lot more money.

I too assumed that one could remove old the cable inner and thread in a new one through the outer that has been held in place. But, I've read that this might not be possible due to the fragmented nature of such outers (they might not run the full length of the internals) and that kinks and bends, especially around the headset, make it difficult to pass the new cable through.

WRT the headset, many sevice manuals recommend an annual maintenance (regrease) routine. I think this is especially important for carbon steerers so their integrity can be inspected. Therefore, it needs to be taken apart even if it's lifetime is long. I can only hope that authorized service centers do this regularly so they build up this crucial skill.

The key question I'd like to have answered is, should I include ICR as a determinant for the bike model I go for, considering the skill and expense it demands. That is, should I think twice about a bike having these, if all other specs meet my requirements? What do you advise based on your experience?

[amol4184]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

Thanks Amol for your instructive response. Yes, cables and hoses have long lifetimes. I expected the same on my Riverside 120, but unbeknownst to me, the heel of my right shoe was abrading against the rear brake cable, causing it to fray in two months. It was a 5-minute job to get it replaced at a LBS. With ICR, I'd imagine it to take a lot longer, a different set of skills and a lot more money.

I too assumed that one could remove old the cable inner and thread in a new one through the outer that has been held in place. But, I've read that this might not be possible due to the fragmented nature of such outers (they might not run the full length of the internals) and that kinks and bends, especially around the headset, make it difficult to pass the new cable through.

WRT the headset, many sevice manuals recommend an annual maintenance (regrease) routine. I think this is especially important for carbon steerers so their integrity can be inspected. Therefore, it needs to be taken apart even if it's lifetime is long. I can only hope that authorized service centers do this regularly so they build up this crucial skill.

The key question I'd like to have answered is, should I include ICR as a determinant for the bike model I go for, considering the skill and expense it demands. That is, should I think twice about a bike having these, if all other specs meet my requirements? What do you advise based on your experience?

You are welcome. The fraying could be prevented by crimping the cable end and tucking it inside somewhere. On an ICR frame this won't be a problem as it is going to be hydraulic in all probability. As for shifter cables, bend the cable and tuck it inside or at least bend it away from the frame, that's what I do on mine. If its electronic groupset, you won't have to worry about shifter cables either.

If the frame is full ICR, there won't be any fragments/cable breaks in between. The cable outers have to run full 100% length from shifters to derailleurs and shifters to brake calipers. There is no other option. There are no cable stops inside the frame and the tension necessary for shifting is solely provided by barrel adjusters on derailleurs.

The full outer is also needed otherwise the metal cable inner would cut your frame in half. Replacing inner cable as part of maintenance is not different from doing it the very first time - in both cases the cable outer needs to be present before you pass the cable inner. If good quality outer (Jagwire is one such, or Yokozuna) is used, you won't need it replaced for a very long time. Hence I said you can simply pull out inner cable and replace with new one. That is not to say the first time routing is easy. Its actually quite painful. This is also one of the reasons, full wireless or semi wireless groups go hand in hand with full ICR frameset.

As for the fork steerer and headset, while its a good idea to grease, note that it does make little to no difference to actual balls inside the bearing which are lubed from factory. 100% of the today's high end bikes come with 2RS sealed bearings and any grease that you apply remains on the outer rubber seal. At the time of first time assembly, the mechanic would apply layer of grease to bearing bed and other contact points on which bearing rests. That grease remains there for years unless the headset was not installed well exposing the bearing to weather, in which case you will have to service it causing a major maintenance headache owing to ICR because you can't pull out bearings entirely. Using high quality bearings for BB and headset is expensive at first but cheaper in the long run. If you have the option, definitely get a high quality headset and BB.

The fork steerer is crucial but also note that fork is often the strongest part of the bike. It does not need its integrity checked as part of a regular service as long as the stem was torqued to spec (not more than 5-6 nm) and headset was tightened enough to not leave any play within the fork and frame.
Trust me, if your fork steerer is cracked you will know it immediately. You don't need service personnel to tell that to you If any service guy is doing fork steerer integrity check as part of a regular maintenance (and charging a bomb because of ICR) they are ripping you off.

This brings us to the key question. If you had asked me this question a couple of years ago I would have probably told you to stay away. But after building and maintaining 3 full ICR bikes at home I have mixed opinions and I can't give you answer in certain yes/no terms. Bikes are not complicated, even the ICR ones and require simple maintenance regardless of what bike shops tell you. What carbon bikes *absolutely* need is use of proper tools, screws tightened to spec, and careful first time assembly of all the parts not done by a jugaad mechanic which is sadly quite prevalent.

P.S. I just remembered. The cable housing has some slack. On my bikes I can unscrew the stem, lift the spacers, pry out the headset bearing, clean with some difficulty, regrease and assemble it again without disconnecting hoses/shifter cables.