[Blue Thunder]

Originally Posted by pjbiju

...Given that when the Thar is launched, its 2-wheel drive version will far outnumber the 4-wheel drive version, ....

That is a very saddening thought indeed (that the 2WD version will also be produced).

Originally Posted by pjbiju

...They would not want to shoot themselves in the foot by having a vehicle that can be driven at high speeds and then turns turtle at the drop of a hat. Combine that with the soft-top and it is going to be a disaster design....

Are you trying to imply that the solid front axle vehicle will turn turtle at high speeds? No, I dont think so.

Originally Posted by pjbiju

...So I do respect him for coming to this forum and then at least listening to us. ...

My guess is that all who are actively following this thread and posting here do respect him for that, nobody has any disrespect for him.

Originally Posted by pjbiju

...I am sure the resourceful off-roaders of our forum will find the means of modifying the Thar to meet their specifications. ...

I guess the point of debate is this : if the specs which had been asked in the other thread ('MM540 wishlist') are possible by (and already available at) by MM, they could have brought it out with this Thar. Why should anyone want to buy the Thar and modify it for IFS and FFRA, if the solid front axle is already available and also the FFRA is available at MM, and can be provided as OEM ???

Originally Posted by Rajachu

.. and must respect Mr Behram,s interactions ...

I dont think the intention of anyone on this thread is to disrespect Mr. Dhabar Behram. Let us not try to project things wrongly.

IMO, this is a healthy debate/discussion on why things have not happened as per the wishes expressed in the 'wishlist ' thread.

Originally Posted by Rajachu

...If thar meets the capabilities of the 540s ...

No point in debating this...the Thar DOES NOT meet the off-roading capabilities of the MM540. Period.

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by RedMM340

Hi Arka,

My MM550 now has a 2.6 Scorpio motor(mildly modified), 4x4 with live front axle, 5 speed. This torque monster is an absolute blast and can out-accelerate my Palio 1.6

Gaurav

Hi Gaurav,

Your post couldnt have been better timed!!! Please post the pics of your project. Later you can start a thread of your own.

Iam eager to see this...really eager to see this!!

With regards

Vinod

[DKG]

I know someone who bought a top of the line Audi A6 Quattro and modified the seats because he thought Audi did a poor job !! Talk about customer wishlists

Basically what I am saying is the world over serious offroaders simply build their machines. Even if Jeep offers what you guys ask for they still keep modifying it for lift, wheels etc.

So its not such a bad idea that the game of modification goes on.

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by RedMM340

Hi Arka,
I agree with your assessment of the Thar. Rather than wait and then get disappointed with what M&M delivers with the Thar, I took matters in my own hands.

My MM550 now has a 2.6 Scorpio motor(mildly modified), 4x4 with live front axle, 5 speed. This torque monster is an absolute blast and can out-accelerate my Palio 1.6

Gaurav

Hi Gaurev,

There are a few guys who can manage to pull this off!!!!!!!!!

I have a few questions
1) Does the differential foul with the Crankcase
2) Does the propeller shaft foul with the Crankcase

What additional precautions have you taken, for the additional engine weight and additional size?

I hope you have upgraded your axles, to take the additional torque.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Excellent Timing!!!!!!!

[pjbiju]

Every designer has to create certain boundaries for their designs. Wishlists are just that - wishlists. The manufacturer gathers these to guide them in their design. The weightage given to each input is different against a set of parameters. For an extreme off-roader, hardtops and lockable doors etc. may be a pain and he/she would be glad to get rid of them. One man's poison is another man's drink. So we simply cannot have our cake and eat it too. Anyway that is too long a discussion to get into.

Here's why I am hoping for the success of the Thar. Once it is successful, Behram may be given the freedom to cater to the wishes of the off-roading community. And that may give us FFRA, Differential locks and other things as OEM fitment. However the Thar has certainly met part of the wishlist that was on team-bhp. That is my opinion.

The IFS will certainly help in giving the Thar a more stable and better ride. With rigid axles the chances of toppling will be higher given the higher CG of the vehicle and the higher speeds it is capabale of. And if the chaps driving MM540s and the CL models graduate to the Thar, they may definitely put themselves in danger since there is more power and torque available to them. We have very knowledgeable BHPians who moved from cars to SUVs only to throw them around corners at speeds that they would not have batted an eyelid with their sedans, to have the SUVs lift off one side. So while MM540s are safe, with a more powerful engine in the same setup, the chances of such accidents can only be higher.

For any company worth its salt "jugaad" options cannot be permanant designs. Even the "jugaad" options will have to be validated and approved by various authorities. That is not the case of individuals modifying their vehicles, although most of such modifications are actually illegal.

[RedMM340]

Originally Posted by ex670c

Hi Gaurev,

There are a few guys who can manage to pull this off!!!!!!!!!

I have a few questions
1) Does the differential foul with the Crankcase
2) Does the propeller shaft foul with the Crankcase

What additional precautions have you taken, for the additional engine weight and additional size?

I hope you have upgraded your axles, to take the additional torque.

Regards,

Arka

PS - Excellent Timing!!!!!!!

Arka,
No fouling of the diff with crankcase.
Yes the front propeller shaft does foul slightly at this time. I need to solve this issue.

No modifications to the suspension or drivetrain. The front springs seem to be fine with the extra weight. Nor has the rear driveshaft or u-joints blown from the extra torque. No axle failure to date, despite my best attempts.

Did have to do extensive modification of the firewall to fit the motor. Also did custom motor mounts.

Got a nice bit aluminum radiator with dual electric fans.

I need you to help me get some nice axles, and power steering hardware.

Oh, and this jeep can cruise very comfortably at 100+ kph.

[DKG]

Originally Posted by pjbiju

Here's why I am hoping for the success of the Thar. Once it is successful, Behram may be given the freedom to cater to the wishes of the off-roading community.

I also look at it like this. A 4x4 Thar in its present config will actually positively impact the growth of an offroad community. How?

By bringing people accustomed to a more stable comfortable sedan like ride to slowly venture offroad and experience the joys of accessing areas in nature where a normal car can't go.

How many people do we know who actually went out and bought a brand new 540 4x4 when it was available off the shelf? None I know. Truth is most people in the market didn't even consider it as viable family transport.

But this will change with the Thar. It will entice more and more people to experiment with going offroad. You may rest assured not many will end up breaking axles to miss a FFRA.

For that matter how many here have broken an axle to really be so particular about the beefier FFRA?

We need to keep in mind that guys like Arka are on the far end of the spectrum where they are hungering for machines that allow them to handle extreme offroad situations more effciently and safely. They will be dissappointed by the Thar. Sadly nowhere in the world is this group of offroaders large enough to warrant any mfg to take them seriously.

So for extreme offroaders, building their machine is the only viable option. I guess we see RedMM doing just that

To the rest who wish to dip a wheel occasionally in soft sand or go up some remote mountain trail a Thar with IFS with MLD can do loads more than what most people would ever desire.

So in summary its not a extreme offroader group wishlist vs what Mahindra perceives as a viable option for the offroad community.

Anyone who understands the physics of forces at play will understand Arka's perspective. There simply is no need to debate the virtue of a solid front axle and a FFRA for a hardcore offroad machine.

At the same time Mahindra is in the business of catering to a wide audience and the Thar will appeal to such an audience who will find offroading endearing while they enjoy the comforts and stability of a sedan like vehicle when back on tarmac

So lets look at the Thar as our (offroad community's) best ambassador to get more people interested in the sport. As the tribe grows one day Mahindra will invite guys like Arka to actually implement their wishlist for a hardcore offroader, provided you run into an Arka as a customer for every 5 Thar's sold

Arka what are the chances that will happen?

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

Basically what I am saying is the world over serious offroaders simply build their machines. Even if Jeep offers what you guys ask for they still keep modifying it for lift, wheels etc.

So its not such a bad idea that the game of modification goes on.

Hi DKG,

A Hardcore Serious Off-Road vehicle in INDIA was the NGCS MM550XD.

That's what we asked for, some of the best JEEPs on Team-BHP are are assortment of MM550XD with different combination of M&M parts.

So while we think we are modifying we are actually doing bolt on conversions, some to the Transmission Some to the Engine, which off-course the company cannot do.

What has RedMM340, 4x4Addict, Jyobeb and my self done to our MM540s?

In the Indian Scene Serious Hardcore off-roading is the JEEPTHRILLS OTRs, for that any old Mahindra JEEP goes well.

Are we doing even going in for 4/6/8"suspension lift?

The vehicles we are rebuilding are STOCK - Modified, we hoped that M&M will give us a Honest 4x4 JEEP with their best available mechanical specs, in which we could fit our Lockers, Bilsteins, Winches and Hi-Lift Jacks.

Below is hardcore International Off-Road Specs. (30Lakhs in Parts)
1) Portal Axles
2) Mutli-Link Suspension with Coil-Overs
3) Selectable Diff-Locks
4) 8-12" Suspension Lifts
5) V8 Engines/6Cyl Diesels
6) 4 Speed T-Case
7) Hi-Speed Winches

Regards,

Arka

[DKG]

Arka if we come up with atleast an order of a 100 550XD with the NEF engine I'm sure we can lobby directly with Mr. Anand Mahindra. What the heck we can also offer to split the cost of ARAI clearance approx 6 lakhs to get this batch of cars out

Problem is you won't find five people willing to put their money down on a new 550 XD with NEF. They'll want it for peanuts like 4.5 lacs or 5 lacs which is absurd given the Major sold for 5.5

Now if M&M launched the 550XD with NEF you seriously believe anyone will buy it at 6.5+?

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by DKG

But this will change with the Thar. It will entice more and more people to experiment with going offroad. You may rest assured not many will end up breaking axles to miss a FFRA.

For that matter how many here have broken an axle to really be so particular about the beefier FFRA?

Arka 1+3 Dana 44 FFRA 2 piece 19 spline
Suresh Stephen Dana 44 FFRA 2 piece 19 spline
Dirty Dan - Dana44 SFRA 1 Piece 30 Spline (Invader, same as the Thar)

Hi DKG,

In Chennai, we make sure the regulars converts to FFRA, only for one Reason Safety.

And Safety is a attitude; which is lacking in the Thar's design, particularly the FFRA.

This is a vehicle fresh off, the drawing board and it lacks such a basic requirement, it reflects on the considerations the designers have given to this vehicle.

They went to extreme pains to make it IFS, good engine & transmission, manual T-Case, but when it comes to FFRA, it is overlooked.

With MLD and the Auto-Locking hubs, the SFRA is a recipe for disaster.

The FFRA is a fail-safe, and that has not been incorporated.

Regards,

Arka

[SPIKE ARRESTOR]

Originally Posted by RedMM340

Yes the front propeller shaft does foul slightly at this time. I need to solve this issue.
Did have to do extensive modification of the firewall to fit the motor. I need you to help me get some nice axles, and power steering hardware.

@RedMM340 well said, nice timing again. You also need a power steering setup? What kind?

@DKG you are really a distinguished BHPian

Spike

[ex670c]

Originally Posted by RedMM340

I need you to help me get some nice axles, and power steering hardware.

Oh, and this jeep can cruise very comfortably at 100+ kph.

Originally Posted by SPIKE ARRESTOR

. You also need a power steering setup? What kind?

Hi Gaurev,

You can go if for the OKBJ 57" Track with Disc Brakes and 53" Track FFRA from a Bolero, or the NGCS MM550XD.

The Power steering will be a suitable conversion, with these axles.

The new Bolero Micro-Hybrid comes with the Power Steering, new steering boxes are available for about 22K.

Regards,

Arka

[Ashley Nair]

That is a very saddening thought indeed (that the 2WD version will also be produced).

Totally agree. If a 2wd version of Thar is marketed, it will completely destroy the charisma and macho image of Thar. What I don't understand is, why then Behram Sir took so much painsd to develop such a pure 4x4, when a similiar, if not better 2X4 is already available as Bolero VLX

I

know someone who bought a top of the line Audi A6 Quattro and modified the seats because he thought Audi did a poor job !! Talk about customer wishlists

That's really tickling.He should have informed Audi too!

[pjbiju]

Arka,

My hope is that as DKG rightly mentioned the off-roading community grows to large numbers to be taken seriously by manufacturers. Jeepthrills and the 4x4 events coverage in team-bhp have prompted many a team-bhpians to pickup a Jeep. What M&M can do is to support such proper off-road events by getting involved more and more and eventually turn the Mahindra Great Escapes into a proper off-roading event. At least have different difficulty levels of it. This will eventually help them. It may not be a venture that will bring in truckloads of money - but it will surely bring a lot of name and eventual media coverage. Not everything can be valued in terms of profit/loss statements.

I am sure as the number of such people grow, M&M will respond appropriately. For regulars, NGCS or the regular chassis does not matter. But what matters is the value for money for the purpose they buy the vehicle for. Sure, they might appreciate a better engine. Most of the village folks have moved onto Boleros. If not, why did M&M stop the MM540/550 production? If they were selling in huge numbers, those models would have still continued to be sold. So this is a gamble for them and for our sake, I hope it pays off.

-Biju

[hellletloose]

this thread reminds me of the famous 3 way war in japan between the king{anand mahindra},the kings son{behram darbar} & a shogun{general-arka}.the prince had sworn allegiance to the shogun to support him against his father,the 3 forces assembled near a hill,the kings forces attacked the shoguns army & were having an upper hand, while the prince still stood at the hill top,perplexed,undecided,whether to support,his father or his friend?.just at this moment the shogun turned his canons in the direction of the prince's forces & fired.as history stands the prince woke upfrom his slumber & joined the generals forces against his father & the shogun won.the canon move is what arka is trying here with behram sir.