[anupmathur]

Does the Gypsy have diff locks? Does it even have LSD?
I'm trying to understand what makes it the outstanding performer that it is.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

As I see it, the GC of the bolero is the biggest disadvantage. Do you think simple tyre upgrade can help this cause? I dont want to get into modifications and stuff but tyre upgrade is really not a "modification" per se...

You said stock. A tyre upgrade to the Gypsy & Gurkha will grant them also, an equivalent increase in GC.

Power to weight ratio, I think the Bolero is better off than a Gurkha isnt it? Could you put down that comparo pls?

Umm, what's the exact kerb weight of the Gurkha? It's so damn hard finding any information on the Gurkha. You'd think they don't want to sell it!

Originally Posted by whitemm550

HI.
DUE RESPECTS TO YOU AND YOUR OFF ROADING ADVENTURES.

WhiteMM550, we'd appreciate your NOT typing in FULL CAPS. It is considered rude in the online world.

WELL, BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, BOLERO 4WD COMES WITH LEAF SPRINGS, SO IFS IS OUT.

Please read my post again. We are discussing the CRDe, on which I've been told the IFS is the only way to go.

ABOUT A GYPSY GOING PLACES WHERE A BOLERO CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT, I THINK IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DRIVERS MADNESS. I.E. IF U THINK U CAN U WILL.

Well, pretty much applies to any offroader, isn't it? I do agree with you that, in the end, it's all in the skilled hands behind the wheel. I believe this discussion assumes the same driver with the same offroading style in different vehicles.

TRADING IN MY 550, AND I TELL U ITS AS GOOD AS THE 550, IF NOT BETTER

That's surely an exaggeration? The Bolero 4x4 is not a match for the 550, starting with its size, weight & dimensions. Hey, don't take my word for it...it's physics!

[The Wolf]

@WHITEMM540: My responses in bold;

WELL, BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, BOLERO 4WD COMES WITH LEAF SPRINGS, SO IFS IS OUT.

The crde comes with IFS in the front.


ABOUT A GYPSY GOING PLACES WHERE A BOLERO CAN ONLY DREAM ABOUT, I THINK IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE DRIVERS MADNESS. I.E. IF U THINK U CAN U WILL.

I wouldnt disagree with that, there are places where both cant go and we gotta call our friendly neighborhood tractor guy!!!

OVERHANGS IN A BOLERO? WHERE?

The new ones come with the plastic bumper hanging pretty low, i guess GTO is referring to that. He is right, the approach angle is affected coz of that but not really a big problem if one doesnt mind working around it.

ANYWAYS, I HAVE BOUGHT A BOLERO 4X4 BY TRADING IN MY 550, AND I TELL U ITS AS GOOD AS THE 550, IF NOT BETTER

Let us know when you get stuck in a situation, we can add that here. So far Ive only heard stories of Bolero getting stuck during an OTR only in a scene where most others also did...


@GTO:

You said stock. A tyre upgrade to the Gypsy & Gurkha will grant them also, an equivalent increase in GC.

Well, I was referring to slighly higher profile tyres to just gain a few mm's, not performance tyres et al. I think gypsy and gurkha wouldnt benefit out of little more height anyway. I see where you are coming from however my idea isnt to give Bolero a technial advantage and deprive its competitors of the same...but to see if these little negligibles can be negated and then continue comparison on further more unison grounds.

@Anup:
The only reason why gypsy is such a formidable competitor is due to its power to weight ratio, almost zero over hangs and perky size.

[vinod_nookala]

WELL, BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, BOLERO 4WD COMES WITH LEAF SPRINGS, SO IFS IS OUT

MM550, he is talking about Crde bolero 4wd (which isnt available) but if available will be offered only in IFS version not like your bolero 4wd.

GTO
I've seen one too many Bolero / Armada 4x4's struggling OTR to think of it as a formidable competitor to the Gypsy or the Gurkha. In terms of sheer offroadability, the Gurkha is the best you can buy under 10 lakhs.

GTO,
Yes agreed! Bolero is no match to shortwheel base versions which includes all the CL340 and MM540/550. Physical length will always have its toll on offroad performance while clearing an obstacle.

Hence Bolero should not be compared to Classic ,MM540 or even Gypsy. They all are thorough offroaders. The other day in chennai there was a pajero with us, it couldnt do what MM540 did, does that mean it is inferior?? No, it is a different class of vehicle.

If i dare, i compare Bolero as an option closest to Toyota 70 series, Defender 110 in terms of concept and execution. Bolero no doubt is no patch on these legendary vehicles. Can a SWB Cruiser 70 be compared to the LWB or even defender 110?

Bolero can be a good expedition vehicle which others below 10 lakh bracket cannot.

1. Cheap
2. Can take tremendous abuse
3. easily repairable
4. Loads of articulation (compared to non m&m's)
5. Can double up as a family vehicle
6. No other vehicle will have off road advantage in similar wheelbase category with open diff's!!
7. Lowest overhangs and can match some SWB's

p.s- Gurkha falls somewhewre between the basic M&M/Gypsy and Bolero,scorpio and safari kind of vehicle. Hence please dont compare vehicles of a different class! Please compare vehicles between 2500mm to 2750 mm wheelbase.

[DirtyDan]

The XD3P in the 4x4 Bolero has been turned back. They did something to the fuel pump or engine for emission purposes I believe. If you drove it you would be utterly dismayed at what a lethargic P.O.S. this vehicle is with the engine the way it is. It is so slow it is frightening to pull out into traffic with it. Off road it I doubt it would have enough power to successfully climb over a chalk line.

Now, if you knew how to turn the engine back up......if, if, if.

[D.V.R]

Below Ten lakhs it is the Gurkha and above Ten lakhs it is Pajero for off roading.Period.

The bolero in my books is cheap people mover.Have no idea about the newer boleros, but have a 1996 model Armada at the farm.

[bhp1]

Bolero is a crude/old UV, basically a people mover with some offroad capability.
Its not designed keeping offroad use as the main objective.

[vinod_nookala]

Originally Posted by DirtyDan

The XD3P in the 4x4 Bolero has been turned back. They did something to the fuel pump or engine for emission purposes I believe. If you drove it you would be utterly dismayed at what a lethargic P.O.S. this vehicle is with the engine the way it is. It is so slow it is frightening to pull out into traffic with it. Off road it I doubt it would have enough power to successfully climb over a chalk line.

Now, if you knew how to turn the engine back up......if, if, if.

Dan,
May be you were driving a wrong example? may be... My impressions of 4wd bolero are good, but i havent driven brand new bolero with XD3p. The last i drove was 2 years back and was a good piece.

I still dont understand why do they have to sell only one model with XD 3p Di turbo though crude wins hands down

[The Wolf]

As we talk about the comparos well see howmuch difference a driver can make...

YouTube - mm-550 muddy hill climb

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Dan,
May be you were driving a wrong example? may be... My impressions of 4wd bolero are good, but i havent driven brand new bolero with XD3p. The last i drove was 2 years back and was a good piece.

I still dont understand why do they have to sell only one model with XD 3p Di turbo though crude wins hands down

I drove 3 of them and they were all dogs. Arka is right, the potential is there but the execution OE is terrible. M&M must have let the accountants loose on this one. But look what it could be with just a tweak.....a little glitzy with stuff messing up the GC but mechanically it is not a bad platform to start with. Good suspension and tough.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by TRAUMASURG

I think all your opinion will change if mercedes benz Galaendewagen affectionately called here in US as the G is available in India.this monster is the off-roader with 3 differential locks,solid rigid axels both front and rear .It comes in 3 diff styles ,a short wheel base,a cabriolet both not available in US and a long wheel base(US) and have AMG version available.the diesel is very popular in europe.

Sir, When you are back on earth give me a call. Before you post further on this thread, please read the title of the thread.

To others:

Why are we even speculating about a product that doesn't exist. The Bolero 4WD in it's current form with a 68 bhp engine (detuned fromt he 75 bhp army spec) is very underpowered in today's world. The 63 bhp DI engine atleast compensates with higher torque numbers. Arguing about a product that doesn't exist doesn't make sense. If the CRDe Bolero was avilable in 4WD then we can debate the pros and cons depending on IFS/Solid axle etc. Given that Mahindra is very committed to 4WD vehicles given the low volumes why do we even bother to speculate.

[Ashley Nair]

Yes Goswami, you are right. it was OVERDRIVE which took the Bolero GLX to LEH pass in Himalayas. And they were all praises for its articulation and off roading ability.

Originally Posted by TRAUMASURG

I think all your opinion will change if mercedes benz Galaendewagen affectionately called here in US as the G is available in India.this monster is the off-roader with 3 differential locks,solid rigid axels both front and rear .It comes in 3 diff styles ,a short wheel base,a cabriolet both not available in US and a long wheel base(US) and have AMG version available.the diesel is very popular in europe.

Really, my friend, the Merc will sell here if it is available with a price tag of 6 lac. and if its service will cost Rs 1500!

[Ashley Nair]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Sir, When you are back on earth give me a call. Before you post further on this thread, please read the title of the thread.

Well said 4x4 addict! It is as well to compare the Bolero to Hummer, if it can be compared with a Merc! And I totally agree with your observation that the present detuned XD3P is grossly underpowered and it is a shame that a company is offering a vehicle with an engine inferior to that of the older one.

As to the VLX CRDI, assuming that it will be offered with 4x4, I seriously doubt it's offroading capabilities. The primary thing is that it's torque curve ascends only from 2000RPM.In real life offroading ,out and out torque from lowest RPM is everything and you can't rev the engine all the time to squeeze out torque.Besides, we don't know whether a technologically complicated and delicate Crdi will be able to stand all the abuse put forward.
In my opinion, Mahindra should plonk the M2DI engine used in the Scorpio variant which pumps out 70BHP and 200NM torque from 1400+ RPM into the Bolero along with a manual 4x4 transfer case.( No Borgwarner rubbish please!).If this is done, what we get is a very capable offroader + highway cruiser with ample power and torque and a very robust engine that can withstand any amount of abuse, and in the most unlikely event of a breakdown,can be serviced in roadside workshops.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

@Anup:
The only reason why gypsy is such a formidable competitor is due to its power to weight ratio, almost zero over hangs and perky size.

Thanks, Wolf, but I wish it was that simple!
Now you've got me even more confused about all the rumpus people make about diff locks & LSDs!
I'm not an OTR person but have a long association with 4WD vehicles (Gypsy and Scorpio). If the authentic one (Gypsy) does not have these, what makes these so very indispensable? I'd like to know/see a video of where the Gypsy failed because of absence of diff locks &/or LSD and because of which the Gurkha was able to do the feat. Real life stuff, please. I've seen the Force Motors' videos wherein you might well believe that without diff locks you are nowhere!

[Samurai]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Some firm reasoning sir? I think gurkha is too bulky and underpowered to scale terrain nimbly. Also, dont u think without a massive tyre upgrade the gurkha can be a perfect sunko in slushy conditions with only so little power at tap, even with the diff locks and stuff. Also, the centre of gravity of a gurkha is debatable in my mind due to its relatively tall frame...

Wolf, I know you have some very impressive background in modding and racing area. I respect you for that, but I am not aware of your background in 4x4 or offroading world. Considering you have only 4 posts in 4x4 section prior to this thread, it is safe to presume you are relatively new to 4x4 and offroading. Do correct me if I am wrong.

You want me to defend my statement about Gurkha? There are enough posts on Gurkha in this section that can drown you 10 times over. Have you read any of them before making a statement like this?

I think gurkha is too bulky and underpowered to scale terrain nimbly.

I have actually driven the Gurkha offroad, and can only shake my head at such a statement.

Bolero has lot of historic data to rely on, one of them is its proven reliability at very high altitude and foresaken terrain like ladakh, Himalayas to Thar desert. Ive also read several articles of Boleros taken to extremely unhabitable pockets and returning home safe and sound with least reliability or other issues!!!

First of all you are confusing between trail driving and offroading. In Team-BHP or Jeep Thrills, when we say offroading we mean driving over natural obstacles, climbing hills without roads, etc. Offroading also refers to driving on broken tarmac or dirt track. Going to Ladakh or Thar desert on trails used by regular traffic is not offroading in our parlance. Lot of 2WD vehicles too drive these trails.

I am a keen follower of 4WD and offroading since two years and been offroading since 18 months, I even have two 4x4 vehicles. However, even today I can't figure which is the best offroader in India. Each have their strength and weakness. My top 3 choices are Jeep, Gypsy & Gurkha, but don't ask me the order, I still can't decide. If you consider OE only, then Gurkha it is.

All the reasoning have been discussed over and over many times in the 4x4 section. Please read them, and then attend a few events, and then drive in a few events. Just comparing specs won't help if you haven't actually done offroading. My CJ340 has 62HP/12kgm engine, now ask rippergeo how underpowered it felt. He has a pete'ed Swift Vdi and he rode my Jeep full day on-road and off-road in Munnar.

I have seen lots of offroader in action, however I don't remember ever being impressed by a Bolero. Plonking CDRe engine cannot suddenly make Bolero into a superior offroader, it surely didn't work with Scorpio.