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-   -   Monocoque vs. Ladder Frame Offroaders (case in point, the new Defender) (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-technical/235581-monocoque-vs-ladder-frame-offroaders-case-point-new-defender-2.html)

Siena (and the Carnival) is for a different segment of buyers; those are good roads van where as Innova is a rough roads van where its grandfather was born as a Kijang in Indonesia with roads as bad as below which makes off-roading a weekday activity and not a weekend activity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1vPS13C4hU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjI7byh5uVk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy05i6hCYKo

You don't expect a Siena or a Carnival to do that ^^ you can't expect them to do that day in and day out before something gives away. The Innova was born in that part of the world to do that all day long. So what it encounters here in India is relatively mild and they last really loooong and are so well loved by cabbies and private owners and also why its a difficult vehicle to upgrade from unless it is a 3 row ladder frame 4x4.

A segment below the Mitsubishi Xpander FWD and Toyota Avanza RWD are also popular and both are unibody vehicles with relatively higher ground clearance which helps but being a unibody will be less durable than a body on frame doing it day in and day out.

While ladder frame is a necessity for hard core off-roading, competitions, and desired for just for the sake of off-roading it is not a requirement for overlanding per se. Mitsubishi moved to unibody construction with integrated ladder frame from 3rd gen Pajero onwards and they are still well regarded as an off-roader. BUT I personally think the new Defender made it worse with airbags and independent rear suspension.

That's a very bold statement to make. Have you driven the New Defender?

In my opinion working with various brands of SUVs (Ladder Frame and Monocoque), if you are a recreational offroader and understand how to offroad, there shouldn't be an issue with either. Newer gen monocoques are stiff enough and don't need a blue pill. Assuming the fact that the ADR angles are similar.

Ofcourse for a competition rig or someone like me who is constantly offroading, a ladder on frame is better due to all the reasons given.

I remember similar discussion with solid axle and IFS but now most people have made peace with it.

Again, we are not talking competition rigs but recreational rigs that also need to travel 100s of kms on road to reach their offroad playground.

Good question and very good points! I think the time has come for us to admit that some of the modern monocoques are extremely capable off-roaders. Of course there are many monocoques which are soft roaders, but that is by design (for the intended markets and purposes of those vehicles) and not a limitation of the monocoque structure.

I think the only benefits the ladder frame design still has include relatively lower cost and simplicity, and ease of repair and modifications.

Considering all the advancements in the engineering fields, I can not see a reason why a monocoque design would inherently be inferior to a ladder-frame in off-road capabilities (again keeping aside the cost and ease of modifications - those are different topics altogether). And the proof of that is the new Defender as you rightly pointed out. It is an extremely capable off-roader.

I am not so sure if that is a fair point. For example, here are a couple of videos showing exactly how capable the new Defender is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNkb3hAF9R4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_qGCzGR-74

Cherry picked videos. Seen the same few videos get linked every time someone (not always me) calls out the defender for being monocoque. Guess what? I can link these too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAouP3oL-T8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4RJpD3lU6I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Im4Do-2inQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTOTpZvhDJE11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_V6QrlOcsU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWuIb5sIiEY

Body on frame: At least one solid axle, better articulation for off-roading. Disadvantage: Not so comfy ride

Monocoque: Independent suspension = lesser articulation. Advantage: Comfy ride

Hard core off-roading ehtusiasts will buy Body-on-frame only. But I have to admit monocoque 'SUVs' are extremely capable in soft off-roading.

Hi, I think you missed my question. Have you driven both the vehicles off the road to make that statement?

With all due respect, I disagree.
I personally have not driven either of these cars, but from the YouTube videos I've watched, the Defender seems like a capable Off-Roader.

Now, I'm not saying it's going to beat any purpose built Wrangler or Land Cruiser, but I think it can hold it's own against most stock SUVs

Attaching a video comparing the new Defender to a G-class and a Wrangler in an off-road situation.

https://youtu.be/tREMcoe3c9Q

1. Defender is a 1 Cr car in India. We are comparing it to 50L Fortuner/Endeavour. Doesnot make sense to me. While the Prado is expensive in Inida, its cheaper than Defender everywhere else and offers comfortable ride.
2. Discussions are on how capable unibody/monocoques have been offroad but haven't the Body on frames have become more comfortable too? Hexa probably is voted as the car offering best ride quality south of 1Cr? Innova with bucket seats are supremely comfortable too. Yes there is body roll, but comfort is not only about body roll. Comfort is relative and what is comfortable for me is definitely not for others. Front seats of Endeavour Fortuner/Pajero on bad roads are pure bliss as compared to unibody's.
3. May not be relevant but in India, Body on frame 4x4 SUV starts at 40L and upwards whereas unibody AWD SUV options in similar range are limited and are not as capable offroad too.

A stock defender is as capable as a stock rubicon if equipped with all terrain tires on many terrains (except rocks) . Its terrain management is superior to Toyota ATRACs
Have offroaded and seen this. But difference is minor
Duster AWD. Its reasonably capable, but nowhere close to a Prado/LC/Defender.

However a stock defender is as good as it can get. That is the problem. you cannot do anything more to it. Even attaching a winch is a nighmare, and the suspension is such that lift kits etc., are almost impossible. Ditto for bumpers etc., for true offroading, not just some trail driving.

This means things like rock crawling etc., will damage it, whereas a Rubicon or Prado/GX when modified will be able to handle that kind of terrain much better.

A Maruti 800 will also offroad if you gun it. But it will do it once and then will have to be towed out. The point is to offroad and come back on once piece without damage. This is where the monoque offroaders suffer. Their GC is simlar to their ladder on frame counterparts, but the average GC is much lower. On a Ladder on frame you just worry about the rear diff as its the lowest point with rest of the vehicle much higher

So if you are heading on the rocks, get a rubicon/prado etc., old school vehicle. If its the beach, all would be the same. And no Duster AWD is nowhere in that league. And I have driven the duster AWD over harsh terrain for a couple of thousand miles and am acutely aware of the shortcomings.

That said, if you are going to ladakh and zanskar etc., everywhere you go, no matter how remote, even marisimik La, its a track and any jeep compass AWD or duster AWD etc., should be able to do it.

However, if the target is Moab then a ladder on frame is the right vehicle, with armor. Defender will do fine, if you don't mind dropping bits of trim here or there.

That said, if you are someone who never mods your vehicle, and wants a comfortable SUV and does not worry about pesky things like reliability and cost of ownership, its the best all round offroad vehicle you can buy today

And that's a Toyota(Lexus) owner saying so who got another GX after the first one bit the dust
To Sum up

This would be a hoot in the defender

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmkDYd8uiXE

These would be doable, but good chance of damage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9StsKLKtH0
Esp this one with the drop at the end
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa25CxaHyK0

And this would definitely break things. Can you hear the painful chalk on board screech of the hitch guard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skoY2y8iVqI

But if you are a fan of scenic long drivers and don't want to bother with the lack of comfort of the Rubicon, or the 12mpg of a modded prado, then this is perfect new defendor territory. Don't just take a subaru or duster AWD there. Ones who tried (yes their were some) turned back 1 mile before the lake after damaging some bits
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNQQNNkj7IM

On a closing note, 10 years ago monoque vs ladder on frame was not even a debate.
But technology has become so good that you can almost simulate a Front/Rear locker with traction control systems. So as long as you have clearance and good tires, you may surprise the heavier land cruisers etc., due to light weight an amazing capability. However when it comes to terrain which requries 33" tires and very very good average ground clearance, you need to go and get yourself an old school toyota.

In another year or two you will have point and shoot vehicles, where you tell the vehicle where to go, and then have lunch while the vehicle offroads itself. We already have this in form of "crawl control" and the likes to some degree, where all you need to worry about is the steering. Even the steering is going away.

As we are on youtube now, Here is something for you all to spend the afternoon watching.

Search for 'Kerala Offroad events' , spend sometime watching and you`ll know which part of the event, be it the parking lot or the offroad track each category of vehicle belongs to.

Spoilers - Only dinosaurs from M&M & MS will work.

As far as I know winch can be installed in a Defender without any problem. Regarding articulation, I agree that it will not be comparable to the Body on Frames with live axles, but there are electronics to compensate for that. Would you be able to show a scenario where lack of articulation will stop the Defender from progressing and the electronics will not be able to help?

Can you explain the body flex part a bit more?


Are you serious?

Last time I checked, one still needs a 4x4 to go to Sandakphu or beyond :D

"Electronics to compensate for that" rl:

Do you also believe that terrain modes on 2WD cars are actually useful, and not mere placebo?


Quoting from CarThrottle

"One factor that can drive a serious off-road driver crazy is body twist. When you’ve got one or more wheels in the air the chassis tries to bend, taking the bodywork with it. On a properly-built ladder chassis, for example on the Land Rover Discovery 4, there’s near-zero flex even under full axle articulation with two wheels airborne. We’ve read and heard anecdotal evidence suggesting that some modern monocoques flex so much in those scenarios that owners sometimes can’t even open and/or shut the doors to check the ground beneath their tilted car."

Here's a video. See the ford's frame flex so much that you cant even open the tailgate doors. Now imagine this with a unibody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKMQjm7i2Jw


I genuinely think Defender is not as capable as some of the people make it out to be.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/trave...uster-awd.html

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/trave...sandakphu.html

I too used to believe in this bullcrap that some cars should only be taken to some place, and that "sach pass is one of the most challenging pass in the country". Until an acquaintance took a freaking Swift Dzire to sach pass and beyond. Shut me up pretty good.

I requested you to show me a scenario where the electronics on the new Defender will not be able to compensate? Also, articulation depends on the suspension setup and not just whether it is a body on frame or monocoque or unibody. The Scorpio 4WD does not have a huge amount of articulation inspite of being a body on frame vehicle.

I do not know how they have been implemented and whether it is just a marketing gimmick or not. But what I think is that if implemented properly it will surely be better than just 2WD. I have seen MLD to be helpful in TUVs compared to those without them, both being 2WDs.


Correction, LR Disco 4 is not a proper ladder chassis.

From Autocar -

"Form follows function, however. Every Land Rover must offer a class-leading spread of abilities, and that meant rethinking the car’s basic structure. Two separate chassis emerged which, combined underneath the Discovery, are called Integrated Body Frame.

This offers the strength of a ladder chassis for off-road performance and, with its unitary body on which the suspension (exotic double wishbones at each corner, and air spheres for springs) is supported, on-road performance to match the best."

What are you trying to prove with these 2 threads? Have you seen how the Yeti reached that place? Also, just to let you know, the first Duster AWD that went to Sandakphu went with us - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/trave...ndra-thar.html

I have seen the Duster AWD perform during our weekend offroading plenty of times and I am well aware of its capability. In fact I am a big fan of the Duster AWD. It is a perfect blend of affordability, capability and comfort. But saying that the new Defender is just as capable as the Duster is something I don't agree to. Anyways, lets agree to disagree and be happy with our thoughts and ideas :)

So if I own a dinosaur and choose not to offroad with it, does it mean its not a capable offroader?

When cars cost 2x your yearly income, its hard to justify hard core offroading.
Even in the west, even with higher income to cost ratio people often prefer to take beaters.

A 2020 4runner is better than a 2001 4runner for offroading. However on extreme trails with body damage change you will find more older vehicles than shiny brand new ones.

Same deal here.

A brand new rubicon will do great in kerala off road events. But I don't see it there.
It's simple. Nobody wants to take a car costing almost 70-80lakhs and beat it up.

Personally I do a lot of trails which can cause body damage. So instead of buying a brand new 4runner or grand cherokee I went with a 12 year old GX as my first vehicle, and then again a 10 year old GX as my second.

The best offroader is the one you can afford to break. One of the biggest drawbacks of the new defender is that the "cost of breaking" is much higher than its peers like Prado/Landcruiser etc., And it can break even when you don't try to break it.

Meanwhile, up here at the front range, local horse, donkey, yak dealers sit on their porches sipping chai, calmly waiting for the inevitable collapse. They know that these expensive, noisy, smoking horseless carriages are a passing fad. Being vertebrates, these animals are considered frame-on. But we are on the cusp of a genetic engineering revolution. I may soon ride up to Leh on my monocoque mare or my eight wheel drive octopus. And, there will be the inevitable power struggle between the CMRV and the Veterinary Service to see who gets the honor of protecting us from our newly engineered transports.